Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 17, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer View Post
But as you have explained above, any character that uses shouts and anthems is overpowered by definition because such buffs cannot be removed. This being the case, what would you do to fix it?

Oh, Jesus... Reading comprehension is not optional:

- Shouts are designed to be inherently INFERIOR to other buffs due to their UNSTRIPPABLE, MOSTLY UNINTERRUPTIBLE nature. They're not overpowered right now, but they would be if you make their effects directly comparable to other buffs such as enchantments. So, some tweaks are ok, like reduced energy cost, lowered recharges or improved functionalities. Giving the Paragon an unstrippable, perfect replica of, say, Monk enchantments would definitely be unbalanced and stupid.

Having unstrippable effects is obviously useful, but you are ignoring the main point of my post. Some of the best offensive and defensive buffs in the game *ARE* unstrippable, and therefore paragon anthems are no different from them and not unbalanced if they were raised to a similar power level.
All weapon spells are unremovable.
All preparations are unremovable.
Powerful skills like Vengeful Was Khanhei, Defy Pain, Hundred Blades and the Avatars are unremovable.
Powerful spirit effects are unremovable (raising spirit out of enemy range makes it hard to kill)
Orders technically *ARE* removable, but this is irrelevant since it is useless to strip an enchantment that ends within seconds and will be reapplied just as quickly.

In my opinion you have very little evidence to support your argument, you are ignoring all of these other sources of unremovable/unstrippable buffs while claiming that shouts and anthems are overpowered because of it. With respect to skills that replicate monk protection enchantments, I concede your point, though there are only two examples that come to mind. Defensive Anthem is only elite-worthy because of its unremovable nature, otherwise non elite skills are better. Angelic Protection in its current form is useless, and the improved form of it that I suggested is still inferior to Spirit Bond even though it is unstrippable. It does not heal per hit, it only prevents damage that is beyond a certain threshold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer
There are plenty of effects in the game that have no counter, for example the weapon spells and spirit effects.

Weapons spells, ok. But then again, most weapon spells have short duration, end on next hit or have just moderate effects on the target. Surprise, surprise: they behave just like Shouts and Chants.

I strongly disagree... the weapon spells last longer than the anthems, last for several (or infinite) hits, and have very strong effects for such a small cost. The anthems currently affect only one attack skill, they don't affect normal hits at all. Splinter Weapon last for 3..5 hits, Nightmare Weapons lasts for 3 hits, all the others last their full duration, typically 15-20 seconds depending on the skill. The weapon spells are much more powerful than anything the paragon can provide and they are unremovable. On the other hand, they only affect one target. Paragon anthems cannot be changed to provide equal benefits to these weapon spells because they affect many instead of one. HOWEVER, I do think that it's perfectly fair to balance some of the anthems against the necromancer's Orders spells because like the paragon's anthems they also affect everyone in the group. The difference is that Orders spells buff damage on every single hit, making them vastly superior to the existing paragon shouts and anthems.

Spirits not having counters...? Without Summon Spirits, Spirits are much sensible to most damage sources even after the vast improvement they benefitted from. Having to care about their survival and protection is enough of a burden.

This is no burden at all, you summon defensive spirits outside of aggro range or behind a wall and they never get attacked. In the worst case scenario you clean up on the enemy while they are busy attacking the spirits. You win in either case.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the correct place for game/skill suggestions is the Official Wiki, as most Developers won't likely bother checking such a thread. The Wiki is easier and quicker for them to browse, so your ideas are better proposed there. Forums are for discussion, we're discussing, some of us have reservations about your suggestions and still you keep on making unreasonable comparisons between different classes instead of providing arguments, turning this more into a rant than a suggestion thread.

I talked with Emily Diehl from Arenanet a few weeks ago and she helped me to post the suggestions in the appropriate place. Thanks for the suggestion though. Rest assured that these suggestions and others have been brought to their attention. When they will get around to implementing them is another matter entirely.

Re: discussion... that is what we are having here, or at least that is the idea. however it is very difficult to have a productive discussion when people only come in to complain that paragons and shouts in general are overpowered. It would be far more useful to say "I believe that these skills need improvement, and here's why, and here's how I think we should change them" rather than complain about things that have existed in the game for years.

My comments in boldface, I hope you enjoy the new formatting. :-P

Cuilan · Jul 17, 2010, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Where's all the people who say that you suck if you can't use a paragon, just abuse PvE skills, PvE is suddenly hard, and why don't you just use another profession?

They must be in hiding. They'll all show when the update preview comes.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 17, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Where's all the people who say that you suck if you can't use a paragon, just abuse PvE skills, PvE is suddenly hard, and why don't you just use another profession?

They must be in hiding. They'll all show when the update preview comes.

I doubt they want to read through the giant walls of text.

Steps_Descending · Jul 17, 2010, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Where's all the people who say that you suck if you can't use a paragon, just abuse PvE skills, PvE is suddenly hard, and why don't you just use another profession?

They must be in hiding. They'll all show when the update preview comes.

So using PvE skills makes pve harder?
Cuilan, is it me or that post does not make the slightest sense.

Cuilan · Jul 17, 2010, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Never said all those things will or are said by the same person.

Lanier · Jul 17, 2010, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

The last part makes me lol.

"Yea, it's clear that warriors, necros, ritualists, and monks are only way more useful than the other professions, and we really feel they should be shittons more useful."

It's nice that you're buffing paras and dervs, but seriously, if several classes are useful in many ways, they shouldn't be the priority for buffs. Rangers are still the shittiest PvE profession out there and eles aren't doing much better. At the rate these updates are coming, they won't get a buff until GW2.

hah, i dont understand it either, im just quoting what emily said.

Anyway, tbh id like to see the kinds of updates that they used to have where they didn't focus solely on on profession or on a couple of attribute lines but instead on specific skills that really seemed broken or overpowered. It was nice after an update to see which skills were different for which professions. I mean i know they should focus on the weaker classes but there are still useless and overpowered skills in the other classes that can be dealt with as well.

Gill Halendt · Jul 17, 2010, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

My comments in boldface, I hope you enjoy the new formatting. :-P

Actually, no, but whatever...

I don't think you've understood anything I've been saying so far.

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In my opinion you have very little evidence to support your argument, you are ignoring all of these other sources of unremovable/unstrippable buffs while claiming that shouts and anthems are overpowered because of it

Listen, I don't know if you're playing the fool or what.

- I'm not claiming that shouts are overpowered. How could you read that into my sentences is really beyond me...
- You want evidence for... a design characteristic? Well, evidence is everywhere: no source of unremovable buff is comparatively stronger than removable ones, it's always been like that. It's called "taking the risk": for the sake of balance, Enchantments MUST be functionally stronger than Shouts because they're easily removed and countered. Hopefully you'll get the point now.
- You keep on making absurd comparisons that make no sense: comparing supportive buffs to self-buffs such as damage boosts and preparations? What for?
- Last time I checked, pretty much EVERY Weapon Spell ended on next attack (Ghostly Weapon), or on the next few hits (Splinter Weapon). When they don't, they usually have some other form of compensation in the form of high energy cost (Guided Weapon), no mantainability (Wailing Weapon) or secondary effects (Brutal Weapon doesn't work unless the target is enchanted). Off course some Weapons Spells are mantainable, cheap and also have no collateral effect: take Weapon of Warding as an example, it's apparent lack of negatives is in the skill progression. To mantain it you have to fully dedicate your bar to Restoration and Spawning Power so that the duration coincides with the recharge. They behave exactly like Shouts and Chants to me, and hopefully you'll know why by now: unstrippability takes its toll.
- Weapon Spells can't be buffed with spell bonuses, such as Enchantment mods. Just like Chants and Shouts.
- Weapon Spells don't stack, while Chants and Shouts do <- there you go, here's another aspect you're grossly understimating.
- Weapon Spells are single target by definition, while most Chants and Shouts affect party members/allies in earshot <-
- Try playing as a Resto Rit and let us know how fun it is to let your teammates die because you waste your time moving defensive spirits out of AoE. Then again, this is fine with me, I usually care about positioning when playing Rest. Then, if that's it, get out of that Well or have Hexes removed from your Paragon before complaining...

Quote:

Re: discussion... that is what we are having here, or at least that is the idea. however it is very difficult to have a productive discussion when people only come in to complain that paragons and shouts in general are overpowered. It would be far more useful to say "I believe that these skills need improvement, and here's why, and here's how I think we should change them" rather than complain about things that have existed in the game for years.

It is very difficult to have a productive discussion when you misunderstand people, put word into their mouths, ignore their observations on your suggestions.

My stance should be clear enough as of now: I believe most Chants and Shouts - expecially Motivation - should be made more functionally interesting (by giving those skills some unique peculiarity and functionality) and more usable (by working on costs, recharges, duration). Buffing them to the level of Enchantments is simply out of question for the reasons stated multiple times since #201.

Tenebrae · Jul 17, 2010, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I'm not talking about his changes really. I think like anything they aren't perfect but they aren't completely worthless either. It seems to me that you think only your answer to changing paragons is the right one. Which I don't agree with. But this is just the impression I'm getting.

Well dude , thats what we ALL are talking about.
If you get another impression i have tou tell you that you are wrong. Mainly because i never said so and i never suggest any specifical change ...... i just said "dont fix it if its not broken".

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Well since they aren't MY changes I don't agree with everything in them either. I agree that they aren't perfect but I think at least a few of his skill ideas are worth looking at. If anet did end up using some of his skill ideas and it became overpowered they could just nerf it afterwards.

In any case maybe this thread being active as it is will motivate anet to fix para's quicker? Let's hope eh?

You are talking ( with that "they arent perfect" ) like they were close to be good , just need a few numbers tweak and no . They are hell far from being balance due to the points that some ppl ( me included ) already posted and no matter how many times we say it , the OP keeps ignoring them and asking for a FULL REVIEW of his suggested changes ( lol @ that , i could write a book for god sake ) wich is kinda pointless when you can refute 80% or more of them with 4-5 simple points.
I guess they are not so simple because he wont understand and keeps doing flawed comparisons like "hey , warriors use adrenaline , paragons too , they should have same DPS skills effect and bla bla" and even misreading and twisting words like saying "omg you think mending refrain is overpowered" and so on ...... its not worth pal , not worth wasting time on that guy and even more when someone ( Halendt ) is already doing it so +1 to everything he said.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 17, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Actually, no, but whatever...
I don't think you've understood anything I've been saying so far.

Listen, I don't know if you're playing the fool or what.

- I'm not claiming that shouts are overpowered. How could you read that into my sentences is really beyond me...
- You want evidence for... a design characteristic? Well, evidence is everywhere: no source of unremovable buff is comparatively stronger than removable ones, it's always been like that. It's called "taking the risk": for the sake of balance, Enchantments MUST be functionally stronger than Shouts because they're easily removed and countered. Hopefully you'll get the point now.
- You keep on making absurd comparisons that make no sense: comparing supportive buffs to self-buffs such as damage boosts and preparations? What for?
- Last time I checked, pretty much EVERY Weapon Spell ended on next attack (Ghostly Weapon), or on the next few hits (Splinter Weapon). When they don't, they usually have some other form of compensation in the form of high energy cost (Guided Weapon), no mantainability (Wailing Weapon) or secondary effects (Brutal Weapon doesn't work unless the target is enchanted). Off course some Weapons Spells are mantainable, cheap and also have no collateral effect: take Weapon of Warding as an example, it's apparent lack of negatives is in the skill progression. To mantain it you have to fully dedicate your bar to Restoration and Spawning Power so that the duration coincides with the recharge. They behave exactly like Shouts and Chants to me, and hopefully you'll know why by now: unstrippability takes its toll.
- Weapon Spells can't be buffed with spell bonuses, such as Enchantment mods. Just like Chants and Shouts.
- Weapon Spells don't stack, while Chants and Shouts do <- there you go, here's another aspect you're grossly understimating.
- Weapon Spells are single target by definition, while most Chants and Shouts affect party members/allies in earshot <-
- Try playing as a Resto Rit and let us know how fun it is to let your teammates die because you waste your time moving defensive spirits out of AoE. Then again, this is fine with me, I usually care about positioning when playing Rest. Then, if that's it, get out of that Well or have Hexes removed from your Paragon before complaining...

You have put so much effort into this, but you still don't understand.
You fail to see that the effects of spirits stack and are similarly unremovable.
You compare the weakest weapons spells (guided weapon, ghostly weapon) that no one uses in an effort to prove your point.
I'm not suggesting any skills to replicate monk enchantments, Defensive Anthem and Angelic Protection ALREADY act that way, I am simply trying to make them worth using.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

My stance should be clear enough as of now: I believe most Chants and Shouts - expecially Motivation - should be made more functionally interesting (by giving those skills some unique peculiarity and functionality) and more usable (by working on costs, recharges, duration). Buffing them to the level of Enchantments is simply out of question for the reasons stated multiple times since #201.

I already agreed with you on that point Gill, and I'm not suggesting any skills like that. I'm not sure how you got on that tangent.
I urge you to follow up your Motivation ideas with some actual skills so that we can discuss them.

Gill Halendt · Jul 17, 2010, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

You have put so much effort into this, but you still don't understand.
You fail to see that the effects of spirits overlap and are similarly unremovable.

Spirits ARE removable: they can be killed, instantly destroyed or possessed. Sure, they're harder to remove with some clever positioning, but they're also rarely comparable to Enchantments in functionality. Just, compare Displacement to Aegis, the Spirit will die in a matter of seconds, but it sure is harder to remove than Aegis on a target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

You compare the weakest weapons spells (guided weapon, ghostly weapon) that no one uses in an effort to prove your point.

Weapon spells offering unblockability to attacks, weak... Really?

They were just a few examples anyway. There's no weapon spell in the game that provides infinite, big advantages and never ends. Even Splinter you keep on mentioning ends after a definite number of hits. Most Shants and Shouts do the same...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I'm not suggesting any skills to replicate monk enchantments, Defensive Anthem and Angelic Protection ALREADY act that way, I am simply trying to make them worth using.

Functionality is similar, but effects are weaker. Wonder why? Need me to explain again?

To me, it looks like you're merely suggesting to make them worth using by making them directly comparable to buffs offered by other classes. You're suggesting the Paragon to become an effective alternative to Monks, Ritualists, Necromancer, Rangers and Warriors alltogether. How's that even remotely reasonable?!

About defense, most of the suggestions you made put Paragons ahead of Monks and Ritualists on functionality alone. And that's even before we take some aspects into account, such as the unremovable nature of Shouts and Chants. But then again, when I tell you this, you take some wild tangent and list some self-buffs that are not removable as well. So? Monks rely on Enchantmens and Spells to play their support role. Enchantments ARE removable, Enchantments MUST be more effective than ANY unremovable buff because of this. Ritualists rely on Binding Rituals and Weapon Spells, both are funcionally weaker than Monks Enchantments but harder or impossible to remove, so both have strong points balanced by some countereffect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I already agreed with you on that point Gill, and I'm not suggesting any skills like that. I'm not sure how you got on that tangent.

Wanna know why? Hadn't you been making direct comparisons with Monks and Ritualists for the whole thread ignoring some significant differences between those classes and the Paragon, maybe we wouldn't have gotten the idea that you want to buff Paragons to make them functionally on par with these classes, while still retaining all of their peculiar advantages.

Lanier · Jul 17, 2010, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Wanna know why? Hadn't you been making direct comparisons with Monks and Ritualists for the whole thread ignoring some significant differences between those classes and the Paragon, maybe we wouldn't have gotten the idea that you want to buff Paragons to make them functionally on par with these classes, while still retaining all of their peculiar advantages.

err, what peculiar advantages do healing paragons currently have over resto rits or monk? I certainly don't see any.

Gill Halendt · Jul 17, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

err, what peculiar advantages do healing paragons currently have over resto rits or monk? I certainly don't see any.

We weren't talking about direct healing here, but more about passive defenses.

I insist, passive defenses that cannot be removed need to be functionally weaker than removable ones and, guess what, pretty much every Paragon buff is non-removable. So, again, turning every Paragon skill into a copy of some Monk or Ritualist skill while still retaining non-removability is plainly and simply not balanced: just check his suggestion for "Never Surrender!"... why would anyone use Recuperation, a Binding Ritual that costs 25 Energy, can be interrupted, can get killed pretty easily, when you have a much cheaper, stronger Shout that cannot be interrupted or removed and can be mantained indefinitely? And that's just to name one out of his many suggestions.

EDIT - Just to make a few other examples... While some of these buffs sound reasonable, most of them are direct conversions of some other class' skill without any reasonable adaptation. Just take Cruel Spear, it would become a ranged, cheaper Eviscerate...

Lanier · Jul 17, 2010, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

We weren't talking about direct healing here, but more about passive defenses.

I insist, passive defenses that cannot be removed need to be functionally weaker than removable ones and, guess what, pretty much every Paragon buff is non-removable. So, again, turning every Paragon skill into a copy of some Monk or Ritualist skill while still retaining non-removability is plainly and simply not balanced: just check his suggestion for "Never Surrender!"... why would anyone use Recuperation, a Binding Ritual that costs 25 Energy, can be interrupted, can get killed pretty easily, when you have a much cheaper, stronger Shout that cannot be interrupted or removed and can be mantained indefinitely? And that's just to name one out of his many suggestions.

Cruel Spear would become a ranged, cheaper Eviscerate...

Yea, i dont agree with the spear mastery changes. In my opinion, spears and spear damage is fine as it is (and no, i don't think it is weaker than bows...).

However, passive defense is more like + armor or -% damage type stuff (like stand your ground and tntf). The healing that is in the motivation line isn't so much passive defense but instead far inferior to monk and rit healing. Im referring to stuff like song of restoration, ballad of restoration, aria of restoration, etc. The fact that they are unremovable doesn't really matter since they dont have any effect until the chant ends. This is why what i would like to see for paragon healing is:

a. the chants need to have a conditionality rework. Im not saying make them (at least the non elites) unconditional, but they need to activate on a condition that is controllable by the paragon. For example, make the choruses (like chorus of restoration) activate the next time an echo is placed on the target ally. The condition for the ballad could stay like it is. The condition for aria's could change to the aria being activated when a signet is used on an ally. Songs could be unconditional (thus turning song of restoration into a more powerful but longer recharging Light of deliverence).

b. Chants need a recharge reduction in order to be of any use no matter their functionality. I would suggest putting their recharges ~10 seconds depending on the chant.

c. Paragons need one (im just asking for one) viable single target heal. I was thinking maybe about changing signet of synergy by giving it a 5 second recharge, eliminating the healing of the paragon using it, and making half of the current heal conditional based on the target being under the effects of a chant.

d. I also think that if the above changes were to be made, a second signet should be changed to a target ally support signet (so that activating arias wouldn't be impossible). One idea is making signet of remedy remove a condition from target ally and raising the recharge to 5 or 6.

Morphy · Jul 17, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Oh, a thread I haven't responded to yet!

Keep Paragon irremovable buffs dead, please, they are baed for balance.

Gill Halendt · Jul 17, 2010, 06:41 PM // 18:41

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Originally Posted by Lanier

*suggestions*

I like them. Interesting changes that don't simply distort the class, don't bring any particular imbalance and contribute making the class more usable and involving.

belshazaarswrath · Jul 17, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Yea, i dont agree with the spear mastery changes. In my opinion, spears and spear damage is fine as it is (and no, i don't think it is weaker than bows...).

However, passive defense is more like + armor or -% damage type stuff (like stand your ground and tntf). The healing that is in the motivation line isn't so much passive defense but instead far inferior to monk and rit healing. Im referring to stuff like song of restoration, ballad of restoration, aria of restoration, etc. The fact that they are unremovable doesn't really matter since they dont have any effect until the chant ends. This is why what i would like to see for paragon healing is:

a. the chants need to have a conditionality rework. Im not saying make them (at least the non elites) unconditional, but they need to activate on a condition that is controllable by the paragon. For example, make the choruses (like chorus of restoration) activate the next time an echo is placed on the target ally. The condition for the ballad could stay like it is. The condition for aria's could change to the aria being activated when a signet is used on an ally. Songs could be unconditional (thus turning song of restoration into a more powerful but longer recharging Light of deliverence).

b. Chants need a recharge reduction in order to be of any use no matter their functionality. I would suggest putting their recharges ~10 seconds depending on the chant.

c. Paragons need one (im just asking for one) viable single target heal. I was thinking maybe about changing signet of synergy by giving it a 5 second recharge, eliminating the healing of the paragon using it, and making half of the current heal conditional based on the target being under the effects of a chant.

d. I also think that if the above changes were to be made, a second signet should be changed to a target ally support signet (so that activating arias wouldn't be impossible). One idea is making signet of remedy remove a condition from target ally and raising the recharge to 5 or 6.

I think these would be good changes. I don't really think they would make paragons any more fun to play but they might get hero slotted more often.

That along with some damage boosts (controversial I know...) would be just right in my opinion.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 18, 2010, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Spirits ARE removable: they can be killed, instantly destroyed or possessed. Sure, they're harder to remove with some clever positioning, but they're also rarely comparable to Enchantments in functionality. Just, compare Displacement to Aegis, the Spirit will die in a matter of seconds, but it sure is harder to remove than Aegis on a target.

for the record,
Shelter is mass Prot Spirit,
Union is mass Shielding Hands,
Displacement is mass Aegis (but better).

they are directly comparable to monk enchantments in functionality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Weapon spells offering unblockability to attacks, weak... Really?

yeah, you can choose Ghostly Weapon to make the next 1 attack unblockable (useless) or you can choose Guided weapon to make target ally's attacks unblockable for 4..9..10 seconds, at a cost of 15e and 2 seconds. That may be acceptable for PvP but the cost is way too high for it to see use in PvE. For that cost I'll take 3 casts of Splinter weapon or some Great Dwarf Weapon, or simply cast Painful Bond. Anthem of Guidance as it exists today provides mass unblockability with the next attack skill, and even so it is too weak to stop defensive turtling in PvP, and too weak to stop blocking spam in PvE as well. Making it into an Order of Unblockability could solve both problems without altering the purpose of the skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

They were just a few examples anyway. There's no weapon spell in the game that provides infinite, big advantages and never ends. Even Splinter you keep on mentioning ends after a definite number of hits. Most Shants and Shouts do the same...

Great Dwarf Weapon and Brutal Weapon and Vital Weapon do this, they have a long duration. Splinter Weapon ends but it is spammable. In any case we're getting off topic, the point is that weapon spells are unremovable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

To me, it looks like you're merely suggesting to make them worth using by making them directly comparable to buffs offered by other classes. You're suggesting the Paragon to become an effective alternative to Monks, Ritualists, Necromancer, Rangers and Warriors alltogether. How's that even remotely reasonable?!

hysteria!! drama!!! too bad it isn't true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Wanna know why? Hadn't you been making direct comparisons with Monks and Ritualists for the whole thread ignoring some significant differences between those classes and the Paragon, maybe we wouldn't have gotten the idea that you want to buff Paragons to make them functionally on par with these classes, while still retaining all of their peculiar advantages.

That's the way balancing is done; you compare skills to other skills and see where they differ. If there is a better way to do this please enlighten us.

re: paragon skills in general, I think the offensive buffs are most similar to the necromancer's Orders spells, and the defensive buffs are most similar to the ritualist's spirits. The paragon's offensive echos and refrains are most similar to weapon spells, while the defensive echos and refrains are most similar to monk enchantments. So we can see that the paragon has a number of skill types from all different professions using the skills as they were designed by Anet.

Anthems ~= Orders
Chants ~= Spirits
Offensive Refrain/Echo ~= Weapon Spells (ex: Burning Refrain, Blazing Finale)
Defensive Refrain/Echo ~= Monk enchantment (ex: Bladeturn Refrain, Mending Refrain)

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 18, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

We weren't talking about direct healing here, but more about passive defenses.

I insist, passive defenses that cannot be removed need to be functionally weaker than removable ones and, guess what, pretty much every Paragon buff is non-removable. So, again, turning every Paragon skill into a copy of some Monk or Ritualist skill while still retaining non-removability is plainly and simply not balanced: just check his suggestion for "Never Surrender!"... why would anyone use Recuperation, a Binding Ritual that costs 25 Energy, can be interrupted, can get killed pretty easily, when you have a much cheaper, stronger Shout that cannot be interrupted or removed and can be mantained indefinitely? And that's just to name one out of his many suggestions.

EDIT - Just to make a few other examples... While some of these buffs sound reasonable, most of them are direct conversions of some other class' skill without any reasonable adaptation. Just take Cruel Spear, it would become a ranged, cheaper Eviscerate...

Ahh, Gill... the two examples you mention are ALREADY like that, all I have suggested is minor changes to them.

My suggestion for Never Surrender is to make it at least partly unconditional, and this may involve weakening its effect.

My suggestion for Cruel Spear is to remove the non-moving condition. Though this rarely makes much of a difference it is annoying nonetheless. This skill is ALREADY ranged eviscerate, but with a condition.

That said, I think you are right about the balance between Never Surrender and Recuperation, I think the number of people using Recuperation in PvE is pretty small because of its huge (and imo, unwarranted) cost. I often put Never Surrender on the team somewhere because it counters mass degen very well and for 5e it can't be beat. I'd suggest reducing the cost of Recuperation to 15e or less (at least in PvE)... but I'm not really concerned with Ritualist skills at the moment, they got plenty of love in their last update.

Owik Gall · Jul 18, 2010, 07:53 PM // 19:53

The shouts needs to last the duration instead of ending too quickly for a condition the shout is used for. At least let the actions be used more than once before they end the shout.

Gill Halendt · Jul 18, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

minor changes

There you go, the problem with your suggestion. If you really believe those are just "minor" changes, well, sorry, nothing else I can say...